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	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;re Together Everybody Knows And Here&#8217;s How The Story Goes</title>
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		<title>By: 3rd and 850 or So : Journeyman</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-2459</link>
		<dc:creator>3rd and 850 or So : Journeyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 22:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-2459</guid>
		<description>[...] next one so clearly that you can actually predict what&#8217;s coming, but still it&#8217;s funny. Kevin&#8217;s post at Infinite Summer wonders about the propriety—and, more to the point, the effectiveness—of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] next one so clearly that you can actually predict what&#8217;s coming, but still it&#8217;s funny. Kevin&#8217;s post at Infinite Summer wonders about the propriety—and, more to the point, the effectiveness—of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1964</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1964</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to belabor the point, but just to clarify what we&#039;re talking about. There are a lot of playful pop culture &lt;i&gt;references&lt;/i&gt; in this book and the Beatles lyric is one. But this is more than a reference. To make it comparable, I think, you&#039;d have to have to reproduce the entire song and claim, say, that Hal wrote it.

(Not exactly, but that would be more like apples and apples.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to belabor the point, but just to clarify what we&#8217;re talking about. There are a lot of playful pop culture <i>references</i> in this book and the Beatles lyric is one. But this is more than a reference. To make it comparable, I think, you&#8217;d have to have to reproduce the entire song and claim, say, that Hal wrote it.</p>
<p>(Not exactly, but that would be more like apples and apples.)</p>
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		<title>By: ToMarGames</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1963</link>
		<dc:creator>ToMarGames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 01:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1963</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m behind in the reading, so I just got to this part today, but I&#039;m kind of surprised by all the flurry over it, because, to me, this sort of thing has been happening all along. For example, on page 32 when Hal answers the phone, and the voice says, &quot;I want to tell you. My head is filled with things to say.&quot; That&#039;s a lyric from a George Harrison song on Revolver. Another lyric from that song: &quot;I don&#039;t mind. I could wait forever.&quot;

It&#039;s an obscure lyric from an obscure Beatle song -- only a die hard fan would even notice, it&#039;s not credited, and it&#039;s not even RELEVANT.

It&#039;s just a joke, and I found it funny. The bricklayer story wasn&#039;t as funny, but you can&#039;t win &#039;em all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m behind in the reading, so I just got to this part today, but I&#8217;m kind of surprised by all the flurry over it, because, to me, this sort of thing has been happening all along. For example, on page 32 when Hal answers the phone, and the voice says, &#8220;I want to tell you. My head is filled with things to say.&#8221; That&#8217;s a lyric from a George Harrison song on Revolver. Another lyric from that song: &#8220;I don&#8217;t mind. I could wait forever.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an obscure lyric from an obscure Beatle song &#8212; only a die hard fan would even notice, it&#8217;s not credited, and it&#8217;s not even RELEVANT.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just a joke, and I found it funny. The bricklayer story wasn&#8217;t as funny, but you can&#8217;t win &#8216;em all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Plagiarism Symposium Part I: Whose Own Words? &#171; No Pun Intended</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1588</link>
		<dc:creator>Plagiarism Symposium Part I: Whose Own Words? &#171; No Pun Intended</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1588</guid>
		<description>[...] I read it, however, I was not aware of something Kevin Guilfoile points out at the Infinite Summer website. At one point early in the novel (actually, it’s page 139,but [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I read it, however, I was not aware of something Kevin Guilfoile points out at the Infinite Summer website. At one point early in the novel (actually, it’s page 139,but [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Brown</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1472</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1472</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see the problem with the bricklayer story as &#039;plagiarism&#039;: it appears in the book as a letter, so in the form in which it actually exists in its most familiar version.  In other words, it&#039;s simply lifted text from &#039;the public domain.&#039;  No copywright issue.  As to whether we read it as DFW&#039;s idea or not: that has to do with what you recognize and what you don&#039;t, as with any encyclopedic fiction.  Such fiction can incorporate text that isn&#039;t original with the author.

There are some other things: a key detail about Madame Psychosis is lifted from the film &quot;All That Jazz,&quot; but that reference is mentioned, at least indirectly (as I recall); meanwhile, the plot of &quot;Reuben, Reuben&quot; (with the dentist) is lifted from that film with no credit.  However, it may be that the plot of &quot;Reuben, Reuben&quot; was already lifted from an old joke or story, the way the bricklayer story is.  I haven&#039;t researched it.

But I have to mention this: in a writing course a few years ago, a student plagiarized the part about Erdedy waiting for his drug delivery. The student condensed it quite effectively and made some funny alterations; at the time I had just finished IJ and that segment was months in the past.  I didn&#039;t recognize it, though I did liken the subject matter to DFW when I spoke to the student.  He had the opportunity to fess up that he had borrowed the situation and some of the language, but pretended instead that he hadn&#039;t read it.  Later, when I went back and checked IJ and saw the extent of his usage, I had to confront him and report it.

It&#039;s a bit unsettling to me to see the passages in which DFW was doing the same thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see the problem with the bricklayer story as &#8216;plagiarism&#8217;: it appears in the book as a letter, so in the form in which it actually exists in its most familiar version.  In other words, it&#8217;s simply lifted text from &#8216;the public domain.&#8217;  No copywright issue.  As to whether we read it as DFW&#8217;s idea or not: that has to do with what you recognize and what you don&#8217;t, as with any encyclopedic fiction.  Such fiction can incorporate text that isn&#8217;t original with the author.</p>
<p>There are some other things: a key detail about Madame Psychosis is lifted from the film &#8220;All That Jazz,&#8221; but that reference is mentioned, at least indirectly (as I recall); meanwhile, the plot of &#8220;Reuben, Reuben&#8221; (with the dentist) is lifted from that film with no credit.  However, it may be that the plot of &#8220;Reuben, Reuben&#8221; was already lifted from an old joke or story, the way the bricklayer story is.  I haven&#8217;t researched it.</p>
<p>But I have to mention this: in a writing course a few years ago, a student plagiarized the part about Erdedy waiting for his drug delivery. The student condensed it quite effectively and made some funny alterations; at the time I had just finished IJ and that segment was months in the past.  I didn&#8217;t recognize it, though I did liken the subject matter to DFW when I spoke to the student.  He had the opportunity to fess up that he had borrowed the situation and some of the language, but pretended instead that he hadn&#8217;t read it.  Later, when I went back and checked IJ and saw the extent of his usage, I had to confront him and report it.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bit unsettling to me to see the passages in which DFW was doing the same thing!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Ellis</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1373</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1373</guid>
		<description>I was disappointed to find the bricklayer story, too.
It felt way too hoary to be original, and I was pretty sure I&#039;d heard it years before.  It really does trouble me.  Perhaps I&#039;m naive, but it seems to me that there&#039;s an implicit promise of original content, even in a very long book.  Not quitting to read it though!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was disappointed to find the bricklayer story, too.<br />
It felt way too hoary to be original, and I was pretty sure I&#8217;d heard it years before.  It really does trouble me.  Perhaps I&#8217;m naive, but it seems to me that there&#8217;s an implicit promise of original content, even in a very long book.  Not quitting to read it though!</p>
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		<title>By: dislexicon</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1310</link>
		<dc:creator>dislexicon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1310</guid>
		<description>At this point in the discussion there seems to be a general consensus that DFW is not guilty of plagiarism, and is probably not even being terribly disingenuous, and that the story is relevant to the text insofar as it provides exposition for an Ennet House resident and exemplifies the practicality of Lyle’s advice. But I am with Kevin; I think there is something more going on here.

I may be out in left field on this—having covertly exhaled illicit smoke through the whirling blades of my bathroom fan not long before coming up with this—but I think DFW’s revisions are key to understanding why this story/urban legend is included in the text. Looking at the DFW text and the ListServ text, one sees that most of the differences are minor stylistic changes and the metrification of measures of mass (not to mention substantially increasing the weight of the bricks to like really comic proportions), but the one that interests me is the difference in what the claimant lists as the cause.  The ListServ claimant claims the cause as “poor planning,” which actually sounds more strictly business, albeit more vague thereby requiring clarification, than DFW’s “trying to do the job alone.”  Other than sounding like a euphemism for masturbation—a thread I will pick up in just a moment—“trying to do the job alone” and miserably failing is a motif in the novel.  Look at the Ennet House residents for instance.  They must keep a strict regimen of attending meetings and getting active with their group if they want to have any hope of not returning Out There.  There’s also the way substance abusers in the text, Erdedy and Hal for example, keep a separate, solitary, and often secretive existence as a user, and as they spend more time in this separate existence, their lives become less manageable.  Then there’s all that stuff Marathe says to Steeply—who is, not insignificantly, divorced—about choice and selfishness, that when one’s choices are primarily selfish one becomes without foundation, free falling, alone (108).  Not to let any spoilers drop, but Marathe continues lecturing Steeply on the selfishness of U.S.A.s through at least page 430.

W/r/t the possibility of masturbatory reference intentional or otherwise, there are frequent references to masturbation in the text. Most notably, there’s the example of O.N.A.N.—as in onanism (see daily discussion forum, “Toilet humor so far”).  In the self imposed isolation of his bob hope binges, Erdedy masturbates excessively enough to require lubrication to prevent abrading the sensitive dermis of his glans penis—petroleum jelly is actually pretty thick, viscous stuff in terms of personal lubricant, so I’ve a feeling Erdedy is engaging in like a strenuous ritual of self abuse (21). Orrin suspects that Hal is always masturbating when he answers the phone, when he’s actually been getting high subterraneously, O. admitting he used to rub himself raw (136-35). In a way, O. is not far off, masturbation and substance abuse being very similar at a very basic level. In its most general definition, masturbation is an act of self indulgence, or ego cathexis if you tend towards the psychoanalytic. So masturbation gets tied in with this whole self indulgence/selfishness as self destruction theme emerging through the drug abuse/addiction, masturbatory acts/references, and ubiquitous T.P.s/death by Entertainment. 

One last semi-coherent, cannabis addled thought as I wax Freudian… The libido operates on the pleasure principle, but ironically the ultimate pleasure in the end game of the pleasure principle is the return to the inanimate, “To die; to sleep; / No more.”

That’s Hamlet just so no one accuses me of plagiarism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point in the discussion there seems to be a general consensus that DFW is not guilty of plagiarism, and is probably not even being terribly disingenuous, and that the story is relevant to the text insofar as it provides exposition for an Ennet House resident and exemplifies the practicality of Lyle’s advice. But I am with Kevin; I think there is something more going on here.</p>
<p>I may be out in left field on this—having covertly exhaled illicit smoke through the whirling blades of my bathroom fan not long before coming up with this—but I think DFW’s revisions are key to understanding why this story/urban legend is included in the text. Looking at the DFW text and the ListServ text, one sees that most of the differences are minor stylistic changes and the metrification of measures of mass (not to mention substantially increasing the weight of the bricks to like really comic proportions), but the one that interests me is the difference in what the claimant lists as the cause.  The ListServ claimant claims the cause as “poor planning,” which actually sounds more strictly business, albeit more vague thereby requiring clarification, than DFW’s “trying to do the job alone.”  Other than sounding like a euphemism for masturbation—a thread I will pick up in just a moment—“trying to do the job alone” and miserably failing is a motif in the novel.  Look at the Ennet House residents for instance.  They must keep a strict regimen of attending meetings and getting active with their group if they want to have any hope of not returning Out There.  There’s also the way substance abusers in the text, Erdedy and Hal for example, keep a separate, solitary, and often secretive existence as a user, and as they spend more time in this separate existence, their lives become less manageable.  Then there’s all that stuff Marathe says to Steeply—who is, not insignificantly, divorced—about choice and selfishness, that when one’s choices are primarily selfish one becomes without foundation, free falling, alone (108).  Not to let any spoilers drop, but Marathe continues lecturing Steeply on the selfishness of U.S.A.s through at least page 430.</p>
<p>W/r/t the possibility of masturbatory reference intentional or otherwise, there are frequent references to masturbation in the text. Most notably, there’s the example of O.N.A.N.—as in onanism (see daily discussion forum, “Toilet humor so far”).  In the self imposed isolation of his bob hope binges, Erdedy masturbates excessively enough to require lubrication to prevent abrading the sensitive dermis of his glans penis—petroleum jelly is actually pretty thick, viscous stuff in terms of personal lubricant, so I’ve a feeling Erdedy is engaging in like a strenuous ritual of self abuse (21). Orrin suspects that Hal is always masturbating when he answers the phone, when he’s actually been getting high subterraneously, O. admitting he used to rub himself raw (136-35). In a way, O. is not far off, masturbation and substance abuse being very similar at a very basic level. In its most general definition, masturbation is an act of self indulgence, or ego cathexis if you tend towards the psychoanalytic. So masturbation gets tied in with this whole self indulgence/selfishness as self destruction theme emerging through the drug abuse/addiction, masturbatory acts/references, and ubiquitous T.P.s/death by Entertainment. </p>
<p>One last semi-coherent, cannabis addled thought as I wax Freudian… The libido operates on the pleasure principle, but ironically the ultimate pleasure in the end game of the pleasure principle is the return to the inanimate, “To die; to sleep; / No more.”</p>
<p>That’s Hamlet just so no one accuses me of plagiarism.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1298</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kevin..I have the recording ...somewhere in storage with the remnants of my vynl LP collection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kevin..I have the recording &#8230;somewhere in storage with the remnants of my vynl LP collection.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>Dennis, if you follow the link to endnote 20 you can hear Hoffnung reading his version, from 1958.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis, if you follow the link to endnote 20 you can hear Hoffnung reading his version, from 1958.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/608/comment-page-1#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=608#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>I first heard the story on a recording by the famous English comedian, Gerard Hoffnung, played for me by an Itinerant Englishman /Scientist teaching his way around the world...this stop was at a small-town High Schoolin NW Wisconsin..in 1966.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I first heard the story on a recording by the famous English comedian, Gerard Hoffnung, played for me by an Itinerant Englishman /Scientist teaching his way around the world&#8230;this stop was at a small-town High Schoolin NW Wisconsin..in 1966.</p>
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