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	<title>Comments on: Irony, It Has Happened To Me</title>
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		<title>By: Infinite Summer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sincerely Yours, David Foster Wallace</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3997</link>
		<dc:creator>Infinite Summer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sincerely Yours, David Foster Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 05:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3997</guid>
		<description>[...] Kevin noted earlier, my generation has been steeped in irony since the get-go, and plunging into a novel that argued [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Kevin noted earlier, my generation has been steeped in irony since the get-go, and plunging into a novel that argued [...]</p>
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		<title>By: OneBigParty</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3239</link>
		<dc:creator>OneBigParty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3239</guid>
		<description>&quot;I read an interview with DFW in which he references his once-intense crush on Alanis Morissette.&quot;


Hmm...A.M. Avril Mondragon. Both Canadians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I read an interview with DFW in which he references his once-intense crush on Alanis Morissette.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm&#8230;A.M. Avril Mondragon. Both Canadians.</p>
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		<title>By: ThisisWater</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3226</link>
		<dc:creator>ThisisWater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3226</guid>
		<description>Mike wrote: &quot;... but maybe I’m not understanding DFW’s intent.&quot;

Now we can have a discussion about the intentional fallacy. ;-)

I think this was discussed a lot right after David died and people were trying to find suicide notes and calls for help and red flags all over his work.

IMHO, DFW was frustrated by being thought of as a wunderkind, known mostly for literary pyrotechnics and footnotes (which some considered pretentious).  As his later work suggests and as is evident in Oblivion, This is Water and, as I understand it, The Pale King,
he was approaching the authentic, be-here-now sensibility.  Sometimes I wonder if his attempts to wean from his medication were a (misguided) attempt to achieve the kind of pure consciousness one associates
w/ Buddhism.  For me, the takeaway from DFW (aside from overall delight and awe and usage) is empathy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike wrote: &#8220;&#8230; but maybe I’m not understanding DFW’s intent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now we can have a discussion about the intentional fallacy. <img src='http://infinitesummer.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think this was discussed a lot right after David died and people were trying to find suicide notes and calls for help and red flags all over his work.</p>
<p>IMHO, DFW was frustrated by being thought of as a wunderkind, known mostly for literary pyrotechnics and footnotes (which some considered pretentious).  As his later work suggests and as is evident in Oblivion, This is Water and, as I understand it, The Pale King,<br />
he was approaching the authentic, be-here-now sensibility.  Sometimes I wonder if his attempts to wean from his medication were a (misguided) attempt to achieve the kind of pure consciousness one associates<br />
w/ Buddhism.  For me, the takeaway from DFW (aside from overall delight and awe and usage) is empathy.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3225</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 02:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3225</guid>
		<description>Cribbed from Wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Types of irony

These modern theories of rhetoric distinguish between three types of irony: verbal, dramatic and situational.

    * Verbal irony is a disparity of expression and intention: when a speaker says one thing but means another, or when a literal meaning is contrary to its intended effect. An example of this is sarcasm.
    * Dramatic irony is a disparity of expression and awareness: when words and actions possess a significance that the listener or audience understands, but the speaker or character does not.
    * Situational irony is the disparity of intention and result: when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect. Likewise, cosmic irony is disparity between human desires and the harsh realities of the outside world (or the whims of the gods). By some definitions, situational irony and cosmic irony are not irony at all.

These are fleshed out somewhat in the entry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cribbed from Wikipedia &#8212; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony</a></p>
<p>Types of irony</p>
<p>These modern theories of rhetoric distinguish between three types of irony: verbal, dramatic and situational.</p>
<p>    * Verbal irony is a disparity of expression and intention: when a speaker says one thing but means another, or when a literal meaning is contrary to its intended effect. An example of this is sarcasm.<br />
    * Dramatic irony is a disparity of expression and awareness: when words and actions possess a significance that the listener or audience understands, but the speaker or character does not.<br />
    * Situational irony is the disparity of intention and result: when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect. Likewise, cosmic irony is disparity between human desires and the harsh realities of the outside world (or the whims of the gods). By some definitions, situational irony and cosmic irony are not irony at all.</p>
<p>These are fleshed out somewhat in the entry.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Seifert</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3220</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Seifert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 22:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3220</guid>
		<description>Fascinating, erudite discussion (and I mean that sincerely). Now can someone please tell me whether it is ironic that the title of James Incandenza&#039;s movie &quot;Infinite Jest&quot;, a lethal Entertainment that captures you as soon as you watch it, is also the title of the novel &quot;Infinite Jest&quot; in which it appears, a difficult, book, serious in intent, that deliberately seems to put off the casual reader for at least a couple hundred pages? I think it is, but maybe I&#039;m not understanding DFW&#039;s intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating, erudite discussion (and I mean that sincerely). Now can someone please tell me whether it is ironic that the title of James Incandenza&#8217;s movie &#8220;Infinite Jest&#8221;, a lethal Entertainment that captures you as soon as you watch it, is also the title of the novel &#8220;Infinite Jest&#8221; in which it appears, a difficult, book, serious in intent, that deliberately seems to put off the casual reader for at least a couple hundred pages? I think it is, but maybe I&#8217;m not understanding DFW&#8217;s intent.</p>
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		<title>By: The Space Between : Journeyman</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3219</link>
		<dc:creator>The Space Between : Journeyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 22:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3219</guid>
		<description>[...] people are to being misconstrued; combine that focus with DFW&#8217;s postironic wariness of irony and it becomes clear that he cannot uncritically reproduce the total knowledge of characters&#8217; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] people are to being misconstrued; combine that focus with DFW&#8217;s postironic wariness of irony and it becomes clear that he cannot uncritically reproduce the total knowledge of characters&#8217; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ThisisWater</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3211</link>
		<dc:creator>ThisisWater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3211</guid>
		<description>So is it correct to assume that sometime right before Pynchon to the present, in the groves of academe, the definition of irony has been dumbed down, diluted, or broadened?  I can&#039;t tell you how many times I&#039;ve heard/seen Gen X-ers and Y-ers say &quot;irony&quot; when they&#039;re being sarcastic or cynical or hiply jaded.  I&#039;m one of those on the cusp people not a boomer, not an Xer ...

If anyone would know the precise meaning(s) of irony it would be Our Man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So is it correct to assume that sometime right before Pynchon to the present, in the groves of academe, the definition of irony has been dumbed down, diluted, or broadened?  I can&#8217;t tell you how many times I&#8217;ve heard/seen Gen X-ers and Y-ers say &#8220;irony&#8221; when they&#8217;re being sarcastic or cynical or hiply jaded.  I&#8217;m one of those on the cusp people not a boomer, not an Xer &#8230;</p>
<p>If anyone would know the precise meaning(s) of irony it would be Our Man.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandan</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3208</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3208</guid>
		<description>You just reminded me of a similar experience I had studying abroad (in Sweden as well). One of my first few days there, I said something snide or harsh to one of my new Dutch friends, and she was genuinely hurt by it, and in trying to justify that it was humorous or whatever, I realized, &quot;Wait, I really AM being an asshole!&quot; It&#039;s been six years since I got back, but I still view that style of interacting with people as…childish, I guess? Or maybe just grating or antagonistic.

The fish-and-water &quot;joke&quot; is very appropriate here, and so many other places too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You just reminded me of a similar experience I had studying abroad (in Sweden as well). One of my first few days there, I said something snide or harsh to one of my new Dutch friends, and she was genuinely hurt by it, and in trying to justify that it was humorous or whatever, I realized, &#8220;Wait, I really AM being an asshole!&#8221; It&#8217;s been six years since I got back, but I still view that style of interacting with people as…childish, I guess? Or maybe just grating or antagonistic.</p>
<p>The fish-and-water &#8220;joke&#8221; is very appropriate here, and so many other places too.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3205</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3205</guid>
		<description>(Maybe Citizen Kane is a bad example. If I remember correctly &quot;Rosebud&quot; was code for a potentially embarrassing bit of gossip about the real WR Hearst, and so that movie involved a whole other layer of knowing--what Hearst knew vs. what Welles knew vs. what the audience knew vs the benign nature of what Rosebud turned out to be in the film. No wonder people are constantly confused about this irony business.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Maybe Citizen Kane is a bad example. If I remember correctly &#8220;Rosebud&#8221; was code for a potentially embarrassing bit of gossip about the real WR Hearst, and so that movie involved a whole other layer of knowing&#8211;what Hearst knew vs. what Welles knew vs. what the audience knew vs the benign nature of what Rosebud turned out to be in the film. No wonder people are constantly confused about this irony business.)</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://infinitesummer.org/archives/1546/comment-page-1#comment-3204</link>
		<dc:creator>kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 15:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://infinitesummer.org/?p=1546#comment-3204</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s true, but it&#039;s only half the equation. It&#039;s not enough that we know something the characters don&#039;t, there needs to be a direct contradiction between what the audience knows and the characters believe. The fact that we know Rosebud is a sled and the characters in Citizen Kane don&#039;t isn&#039;t especially ironic. 

Obviously if we didn&#039;t know who Oedipus&#039;s real parents were (and neither did he), we&#039;d be left with the earnest version of that play in which Oedipus successfully evades the prophecy by murdering a king in another town and marrying the king&#039;s wife. Not nearly as good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s true, but it&#8217;s only half the equation. It&#8217;s not enough that we know something the characters don&#8217;t, there needs to be a direct contradiction between what the audience knows and the characters believe. The fact that we know Rosebud is a sled and the characters in Citizen Kane don&#8217;t isn&#8217;t especially ironic. </p>
<p>Obviously if we didn&#8217;t know who Oedipus&#8217;s real parents were (and neither did he), we&#8217;d be left with the earnest version of that play in which Oedipus successfully evades the prophecy by murdering a king in another town and marrying the king&#8217;s wife. Not nearly as good.</p>
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